Wonderful Counselor or Wonderful, Counselor ?
Isaiah 9:6.
A verse we hear much about during this Christmas season, it is a prophetic announcement of Christ eight centuries (give or take a week) before the fact. Here Isaiah lists the titles and names of the Savior and the first, most famous of them all is this "Wonderful Counselor." Which I had never really thought about until today.
My bible (WEB) translates the verse as two different words; "Wonderful" comma "Counselor" - not "Wonderful Counselor." So I did some research and it appears there is a divide...some translations (KJV, NKJV, WEB, RSV, ASV) call Christ both wonderful and a counselor, but not a "wonderful counselor" while other translations (NIV, NASB, ESV) call him indeed a "Wonderful Counselor." Even the NIV allows for a mistranslation by putting a footnote that reads "also Wonderful, Counselor." I would tell you what The Message says, but I only looked in legitimate Bibles.
All of this left me with a conundrum. Which is it and why does it matter? Hebrew punctuation is only slightly less confusing than tort law and tax reform, but suffice it to say (with no exaggeration) that there are more punctuation marks in Maesoretic Hebrew than there are letters in our alphabet.
I think it is more important that Christ be wonderful as well as being a counselor rather than simply being a wonderful counselor. To be wonderful encompasses all that he is. He is a wonderful prophet, a wonderful priest, and a wonderful king if indeed he is wonderful. Being wonderful infuses all that you are with a quality of magnanimousness. If he is simply a wonderful "no comma" counselor, perhaps he is not a wonderful king? Just a thought...
I'd keep the comma if they asked me...but they won't.
A verse we hear much about during this Christmas season, it is a prophetic announcement of Christ eight centuries (give or take a week) before the fact. Here Isaiah lists the titles and names of the Savior and the first, most famous of them all is this "Wonderful Counselor." Which I had never really thought about until today.
My bible (WEB) translates the verse as two different words; "Wonderful" comma "Counselor" - not "Wonderful Counselor." So I did some research and it appears there is a divide...some translations (KJV, NKJV, WEB, RSV, ASV) call Christ both wonderful and a counselor, but not a "wonderful counselor" while other translations (NIV, NASB, ESV) call him indeed a "Wonderful Counselor." Even the NIV allows for a mistranslation by putting a footnote that reads "also Wonderful, Counselor." I would tell you what The Message says, but I only looked in legitimate Bibles.
All of this left me with a conundrum. Which is it and why does it matter? Hebrew punctuation is only slightly less confusing than tort law and tax reform, but suffice it to say (with no exaggeration) that there are more punctuation marks in Maesoretic Hebrew than there are letters in our alphabet.
I think it is more important that Christ be wonderful as well as being a counselor rather than simply being a wonderful counselor. To be wonderful encompasses all that he is. He is a wonderful prophet, a wonderful priest, and a wonderful king if indeed he is wonderful. Being wonderful infuses all that you are with a quality of magnanimousness. If he is simply a wonderful "no comma" counselor, perhaps he is not a wonderful king? Just a thought...
I'd keep the comma if they asked me...but they won't.
posted by rOmiLaYu at 5:28 PM
5 Comments:
My opinion is that there should be a comma between "Wonderful" and "Counselor". This is why: I believe it relates to Judges 13:18, which in the KJV reads thus:
Jdg 13:18 — And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it [is] secret?
As Blueletter Bible explains:
"or, wonderful. It was because his name was secret that Manoah wished to know it. But the angel does not say it was secret, but hoo pailee, ""it is wonderful;" " the very character given to the Messiah: ""His name shall be called pailai, Wonderful,"" Isa 9:6."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jdg/13/18.html
Only one other version at Blueletter Bible shows the verse using the word "secret":
Available Translations and Versions for Jdg 13:18
KJV - Jdg 13:18 - And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it [is] secret?
King James Version 1611, 1769
NKJV - Jdg 13:18 - And the Angel of the LORD said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?"
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson
NLT - Jdg 13:18 - "Why do you ask my name?" the angel of the Lord replied. "You wouldn't understand if I told you."
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust
NIV - Jdg 13:18 - He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.”
Footnote:
Or is wonderful
New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society
ESV - Jdg 13:18 - And the angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles
NASB - Jdg 13:18 - But the angel of the LORD said to him, "Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?"
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation
RSV - Jdg 13:18 - And the angel of the LORD said to him, "Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?"
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.
ASV - Jdg 13:18 - And the angel of Jehovah said unto him, Wherefore askest thou after my name, seeing it is wonderful?
American Standard Version 1901 Info
Young - Jdg 13:18 - And the messenger of Jehovah saith to him, `Why [is] this -- thou dost ask for My name? -- and it [is] Wonderful.'
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info
Darby - Jdg 13:18 - And the Angel of Jehovah said to him, How is it that thou askest after my name, seeing it is wonderful?
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info
Webster - Jdg 13:18 - And the angel of the LORD said to him, why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it [is] secret?
Noah Webster Version 1833 Info
HNV - Jdg 13:18 - The angel of the LORD said to him, Why do you ask after my name, seeing it is wonderful?
Hebrew Names Version 2000 Info
Vulgate - Jdg 13:18 - cui ille respondit cur quaeris nomen meum quod est mirabile
Jerome's Latin Vulgate 405 A.D. Info
From Strong's Concordance:
Hebrew for 06383
Pronunciation Guide
pil'iy {pil-ee'} or paliy' {paw-lee'}
....Root Word from 06381
Part of Speech
adj
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) wonderful, incomprehensible, extraordinary
Authorized Version (KJV)
Translation Count — Total: 4
AV - secret 1, wonderful 1, variant 2; 4
From the root word:
Hebrew for 06381
Pronunciation Guide
pala' {paw-law'}
Part of Speech
v
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to be marvellous, be wonderful, be surpassing, be extraordinary, separate by distinguishing action
a) (Niphal)
1) to be beyond one's power, be difficult to do
2) to be difficult to understand
3) to be wonderful, be extraordinary
a) marvellous (participle)
b) (Piel) to separate (an offering)
c) (Hiphil)
1) to do extraordinary or hard or difficult thing
2) to make wonderful, do wondrously
d) (Hithpael) to show oneself wonderful or marvellous
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 71
AV - (wondrous, marvellous...) work 18, wonders 9, marvellous 8, wonderful 8, ...things 6, hard 5, wondrous 3, wondrously 2,
marvellously 2, performing 2, misc 8; 71
I believe the word is deliberately mistranslated in the KING [hint, hint - Psalm 2:2] James Version.
The "Angel" was Jesus. At verse 22:
Jdg 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
[ Exd 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. ]
Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
Jhn 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jdg/13/22.html
If you are interested in a possible conspiratorial reason WHY the word is mistranslated, and WHY it makes a difference, please note the people involved:
Jdg 13:2 ¶ And there was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites,whose name [was] Manoah; and his wife [was] barren, and bare not.
and see this:
THE LOST TRIBE OF DAN
http://www.watch.pair.com/dan.html
If the word is "secret", perhaps it leaves an opening for someone else to "come in His name"?
Jhn 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn005.html#43
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